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What did George and Cindy know and when?

30 Oct

So, I didn’t find out about this contest in time to read through these old posts and find the best one. But ranting about Casey Anthony reminded me how much I love to write and I do want to claim that title, writer so desperately that I’m willing to enter this barely cleaned up text with all-caps, bolding and ranting just so that I can enter http://youareawriter.com !! I hope I will find it motivating to revive this blog and write more often- it will pain me to put this out there without updating with something that actually moves beyond a drafty ramble. This was originally published on 10/30/09.

I’m still TRYING to give them the benefit of the doubt at least as to their knowledge and actions prior to July 15. But it seems like most of what I read on the interwebs and blogospheres does not seem to reinforce the feeling. I’m surprised though, at the number of people who believe that Cindy and/or George were involved in Caylee’s death or at least had guilty knowledge of it. Let’s just say there are many spots available in the Anthony fan club— lots and lots of them. But I wonder if most people really think they have guilty knowledge or they are just trying not to harm Casey any further now? They recently went on a Caribbean cruise, supposedly w/some of the $20,000 CBS (48 Hours) is paying them for their appearance or for licensing the photos and videos of Caylee. Which is common practice and frankly not that much money for this kind of case but would you go on a Caribbean cruise right now?

I’m not sure they really thought that through (surprise). I mean, everyone needs a break- but if I were of limited means, desperately searching for my grandaughter and thought that someone named Zenaida might have her in Puerto Rico…as they say…I think I might book a $204 flight to Puerto Rico rather than a cruise. Even though the prices seem to be about the same. Of course, on the cruise your room is included but in Puerto Rico they could just stay w/Ricardo’s family so…yeah, that might actually work out bc the way they talk about Ricardo they would surely need to look into his peeps over there–it’s perfect.

Honestly, I don’t really think it’s that terrible that they did that- took a vacation. But seriously, WHO THE HELL is advising them? How about at least waiting a bit. WHY must you do it when you KNOW you just brought the national spotlight on you again? How about wait a couple of weeks, a month? They thank the media for the vacation– telling the camera person– thanks you paid for this but then in the very next breath say- thanks a lot you just RUINED our vacation! Gee, the vacation was great until we docked and got to the pkg lot- it really went downhill from there.

Anyway, I almost want to call the Anthony’s up and offer to help them PR wise. They seem quite clueless or else they ceased to care. They should care though- they are NOT doing themselves or their daughter any favors. They seem to have ABSOLUTELY no concept of how one thing that comes out of your mouth should usually agree w/the next or at least have some relation to it. The way they think and operate should truly be studied. But I digress.

I think it’s OBVIOUS how much they loved Caylee and my heart goes out to them for their tragic loss- it is clear they were DEVASTATED. Casey…not so much. The only times that I can remember her crying were when she found out she wouldn’t get out on bond, casey cryingwhen her dad said “hey gorgeous” in a jail visitation and casey crying2when she and Jose gave a press conference as she was about to turn herself in to go back to jail and he blathered on about what an amazing mom she was and how hard this ordeal has been for her after people actually started looking for Caylee. In those jail visitations it’s ALL about Casey. She never once brings up trying to find Caylee and BARELY tolerates questions on the matter. Her parents tip toe around things so much it’s painful to watch.

Nobody gets a handbook on how to react in that situation. Strangely I think that part of their Caylee “foundation” includes plans to offer advice to people who find themselves in that situation–Wow. I’d be curious to know what their guidance would be because they have behaved quite BIZARRELY at times- not exactly a road map for success in the public eye.

Have you read those depositions taken by the state?? I do think the whole family is in MASSIVE cover up mode at this point and have been for quite some time. So much so, that they aren’t making much sense but again, they just don’t seem to realize it or care. But are they covering up some inside knowledge or just trying to save their daughter?

ALL 3 of them profess to believe that Caylee MAY still be alive!! My jaw is still sore from the fall on that one. I guess at some point I should cease to be surprised but they sure keep the hits coming! Apparently no one who ever crossed paths with Caylee is safe…

They think Jesse’s mom was that tip from Wanda at the Orlando airport. She flew Caylee to Atlanta and that’s where the other tip of someone matching Jesse and his truck were “seen.” Which explains why Jesse “high tailed” it out of O-town (to Athens, GA) so fast after Caylee disappeared. But, in case that’s not true they are also “hot on the trail” of some poor lady named Zenaida in Puerto Rico and they said that Ricardo is gay or bisexual and he and Amy are heavily involved in heroin use. I feel soo sorry for anyone that ever tried to befriend Casey.

I know many people think that the Anthony’s were involved somehow early on or at least knew about it and just pretended to search for Caylee all that time knowing she was dead. I just find that so hard to believe or else I just want so badly not to believe it. What did they know and when did they know it? I think they thought she might be alive or were desperately clinging to that right up until December 11th. However…

One thing I really want to figure out is–what is the deal w/Dominic Casey going to those woods in November where little Caylee was found twice or was it three times? There is something super fishy about that. I wasn’t following the case as closely at times so I think I missed a lot when all of that was coming out. But what I’ve read and seen so far bothers me. I cannot figure that one out. I just watched George’s depo in the civil suit and his reaction to this line of questioning seemed a bit strange to me as well. His attitude almost takes a 180 from the entire rest of the depo. The questioning starts in the last half of the second part. From the beginning of the interview until about this part George is hostile and unbelievably arrogant. He wants so badly to show this by looking down his nose at John Morgan. Unfortunately, he can’t because he’s not so tall and it almost looks like he’s leaning back to take care of a nose bleed. george grinch3Something about the faces he makes here remind me of the Grinch. grinch george And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, George, because I happen to love Dr. Suess. I’m just saying. Your face is very expressive. Jim Carrey makes a lot of money that way.

I think Casey has probably threatened them with taking Caylee away anytime she didn’t get her way. She could see (through her jealous rage) how powerful Caylee was as a threat and she held that to their heads like a .357.

In that first phone call home from jail- the first time the police have a chance to help find Caylee- ALL she wants is Tony’s phone number. She rants angrily about the police– They’ve already said they’re going to pin this on me if they DON’T find Caylee!!– like THAT is the worst thing about them NOT FINDING YOUR DAUGHTER?!@!@#$%??

She also whines in that first call (2:10)- They just want Caylee back. That’s all they’re worried about right now is getting Caylee back!! Ooops, she tries to recover and say that’s all she’s worried about too…but FIRST… GIVE ME TONY’S NUMBER RIGHT NOW! You people can look for my daughter later but I NEED TO TALK TO MY F’IN BOYFRIEND!

Whenever she did leave on June 16 I think Cindy was worried, increasingly desperate and probably taking it out on George. Saying– You drove her away! You were always acting like a detective, checking up on her. You busted her at Sports Authority, you chased her down the highway– this is all YOUR fault. I blame YOU for not having my Caylee! I think George has been almost completely neutered (Cindy keeps those in a jar). He gets them back at certain times because he acknowledged the smell and warned one of the cops that night that his daughter might be lying. But speaking of that smell… WHY didn’t the many cops that were in and out of the house that night smell the trunk? A smell that distinct, immediately recognizable and permeating that car?? How thorough of a cleaning job did Cindy do on that car? Was the Febreze she sprayed everywhere powerful enough to have covered it? Seems doubtful.

Anyway, I think she blamed George and threatened him even more ‘after the crime’ and has now cracked the whip and circled the wagons. Now the only thing in their minds (Cindy, George and Lee) is SAVING CASEY. And sadly that doesn’t leave any room for reality, reason, civility or consistency- let alone JUSTICE FOR CAYLEE. Cindy says in that 48 Hours episode that justice for Caylee is what’s most important and that that will bring justice for Casey– the truth will set Casey free. I think they’ve treated truth so poorly it might not get a chance to stand up for Caylee anymore.

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90 Comments

Posted by on October 30, 2009 in Uncategorized

 

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90 responses to “What did George and Cindy know and when?

  1. Kim

    October 30, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Wonderfully put, Kim!

    And thanks for the videos – they are adorable

     
  2. knight Owl

    October 30, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Hi Kim, such a good informative post and i so loved it and agree. a good job my friend. love those puppies and the baby with the big dog, how cute is that? thanks so much.

     
  3. diana

    October 30, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Hi Kim,
    Great blog topic and insight, but I’m not sure what you mean by “cops crawling all around and not smelling the car”? I thought Det. Melich said in Cindys depo. that the car was picked up by LE the very next day. (She spouted off to the media that it sat for 2 days before it was picked up and he called her on it). If you are talking about in the towyard, the cops did not know that her car was even there.
    Back to the topic though……..I think George and Cindy BOTH knew the day they got the car what had happened, because in Georges first interview with LE he said he was afraid either Caylee or Casey was in that trunk (he was afraid to open it, and had the towyard do it), and when they got the car home……Cindy says (according to George under oath) It’s the pizza isn’t it George? And he gave a sad look to her and said YEAH it’s the pizza. He knew that Cindy would have fallen to pieces right then and so would he if they confronted the TRUTH. They both knew at that moment what it was. JMO

     
    • citizenkim

      October 30, 2009 at 6:46 pm

      Hi diana-thanks. There are a couple of things I’ll try to look up so I can be more specific and cite my source. I meant the Anthony’s home on July 15 – July 16, in that the cops were all over that place. The car was in the garage supposedly reeking so badly when Lee arrived that he said it could take your breath away (or something to that effect). The cops picked up the car w/in 24 hours but I believe it was in the early evening of July 16.

      I think George certainly had his suspicions but to actually BELIEVE it was Caylee was just too much to fathom at that point. The Anthony’s are STACKED w/talent in the DENIAL department. I think they were at first coming up w/ANY other scenario– their daughter put a dead pig in the trunk to rot then abandoned the car just bc she’s a spiteful b!tch; or Casey got involved w/someone who didn’t turn the other cheek when she stole from them and that person did something nefarious w/the car. Basically ANYTHING but let their minds rest upon the fact that it could be their beloved Caylee whom that hadn’t seen in a month. I’m SURE that thought was there but I’m not sure that they were dealing w/it.

      Also, Lee said in his depo that he sat w/Casey in the garage and chatted for a few minutes that night as the cops and chaos swirled around the house. IF the smell WAS still that bad that would seem to be an odd location choice. And Cindy was a bit OCD about neatness and cleanliness I imagine she hit that car HARD w/the Febreze. If you dumped a bottle of that in there- would that mask the smell for a certain period of time? I still don’t know what they knew and when they knew it but their behavior has just become increasingly bizarre. I think the more they realized that Casey did it the less in touch w/reality they became.

      You’re right Ideas– It’s ALL about CASEY and not poor Caylee. It’s really disgusting too. They can support their daughter all they want but Caylee and the TRUTH should come first. It’s rough they are in an almost impossible situation but they path they have chosen is most divergent from logic and reason. They appear to have left the path and jumped the crazy train.

      Thanks Kim and knight Owl- glad you enjoyed the videos!

       
  4. Ideas

    October 30, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    diana, first you said that George and Cindy knew at the tow yard.

    Then you said that George lied with Cindy about pizza because the truth would make them fall to pieces.

    So what was so bad about falling to pieces? They were already in pieces. If they already knew that Caylee was dead, what was left to face?

    I believe it was all about saving Casey and their family pride and any shared indirect culpability. Casey was doomed. That’s why LE was not called at the tow yard and why the car got an especially good cleaning.

    Their continuing philosophy is to first let Casey explain herself and then try to smooth things over for her.

    This is why many bloggers are upset. It’s about Casey not Caylee.

     
  5. diana

    October 30, 2009 at 7:25 pm

    Ideas
    I said George knew at the towyard, not Cindy. I think they bothe knew when they got the car home. George drove it. He was cop, so he knew that smell.
    The reason they didn’t face it when they knew it, was simple……..It would mean that their daughter killed their Grandaughter. Thats a hard pill to swallow, and one that they still won’t face.

     
  6. Ideas

    October 31, 2009 at 6:34 am

    Yes, diana, George smelled it, knew it, first.

    Is it possible to know something, and not face it? Aren’t they the same thing?

    I realize it is possible to know something, and then lie or spin about it.

    Because the situation was dire, and LE was not informed, and the car was cleaned, that leads me to believe they KNEW, FACED IT, and took measures in their own hands in dealing with what they knew, i.e. Casey was in trouble.

    The other scenario is to not know, unwittingly clean, find out from LE later that evidence supports Caylee’s death, and then deny or accept (but still lie to keep Casey out of as much trouble as possible.)

    The whole “Caylee is not dead and we won’t face it,” scenario between the three, seems to me just a charade to make themselves appear to be in denial, gain more sympathy, and show that they are rejecting all evidence. I think this was concocted to show Anthony solidarity in support of the defense, even if perjured, to save Casey from her own doom. JMO

     
  7. Boston

    October 31, 2009 at 8:50 am

    Ideas and Diana-Did you ever think it was strange that Cindy never asked Casey if the Nanny ever drove the car?

     
    • citizenkim

      October 31, 2009 at 9:16 am

      Hi Boston- I think that’s strange but I think she’s trying to make up for it now. I think they are saying that there was a spare key and maybe Zanny or Jesse had access. You know their policy…whoever is handy- UNDER THE BUS!

      It’s also strange that no one asked Cindy why she didn’t try to call Zanny if she had her number and address on a post- it the whole time Casey and Caylee were gone. You know good and gosh darn well that Cindy would have been at that ladies front door or stalking her on the phone if she believed that was valid contact info. I wonder if her phone records show that she ever tried to call the number she had for Zanny?

       
  8. Boston

    October 31, 2009 at 10:28 am

    You are so right Citizenkim. I think when they went to the towyard they knew beyond a reasonable doubt that a dead body had been in the trunk and they also knew that the driver was more than likely responsible. What they needed at that moment was what they had always hated in the past-Lies.

    Cindy went looking for Casey and when she found Casey she knew by her behavior and actions that something very bad had happened. Casey was the one who abandoned the car and when apprehended was playing on her computer and stating emphatically that she was going to “come back” to Tony’s.

    It was only after seeking Lee’s assistance and Lies from Casey when Cindy made the second call to police informing them that her grandchild was missing and was abducted by the Nanny.

    I think Cindy and George saw the writing on the wall. When Casey was put in jail that first day her impulsivity got the best of her. Within hours of her arrest she got an attorney.

    This was the second time in her life that she acted alone and did something very impulsive and very bad-she got an attorney who, like Casey, felt entitled not only to be the first Hispanic to handle one of the most horrific homicides in Florida minus the experience. Casey met her match-someone who didn’t know what they were doing. They deserve each other.

    That is the only real regret that the Anthony’s have. They love Casey and they certainly must feel considerable disdain for who she hired to represent her. In Casey’s twised thinking Jose became her knight in shining armour. (pun intended).

     
  9. Ideas

    October 31, 2009 at 10:43 am

    But the lies are finished now, yes? No more interviews or depositions? All tucked away for trial?

    But what is the A’s final stance?

    I know their primary stance is that Casey is innocent, but…
    Is Caylee dead, or not?
    Is there a real “10” ZG nanny, or not?
    Did she indeed kidnap and kill?
    Are the friends all nannies incognito?
    Did Casey help someone, or vice-versa?
    Or, [fill in the blank]

     
  10. Boston

    October 31, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Ideas-I think the Nanny theory was tossed the moment Casey was arrested for Neglect of a Child in July 08. When the Bond was set at 500K that sent a huge message to Jose Baez. There was never, ever going to be a Nanny defense. All Jose could say knowing this is, “Caylee is alive” and regretably he said that too often.

    When Casey was taken into custody after the Grand Jury indictment she never mentioned the Nanny to Mr Savage from the FBI-“I have a gut feeling that Caylee is alive”. She knew LE did an intensive investigation and even she knew that this was flawed thinking on her part to mention ZFG.

    She referred to the evidence against her that day as “speculation”. Did she forget that the evidence presented at the Grand Jury was an inquiry into who killed her child? This was before the body was found. While being handcuffed she did not appear to have any observable fear or anxiety and laughed with her captors.

    Is it true that the superegos of sociopaths idealize evil? I certainly don’t know but if they do than we can anticipate Casey Anthony lying now and in the future.

    Doesn;t she realize that her attorney could have framed a lifesaving defense which could have honored the dead and quelled the publics’ outrage with the truth?

    Her dating, dancing and drinking days are over.

     
  11. diana

    October 31, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Boston,
    Please don’t give Cindy any more ideas on how to spin a defense, by saying that Zanny drove that car. Grrrrr. She apparently had not thought of that one. I like how she asked Casey (knowing it was being taped) if Zanny had a key to the house…….ha ha…how obvious……..and low and behold……she says YES. In Caseys warped mind (since she is the nanny) she thinks that means she is telling the truth. Oops..half truth/mistruth/white lie. Cindy likes to clean up the word “LIE”.

     
  12. Boston

    October 31, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    Diana-Casey did a great job with Cindy. I am sure that Cindy will have years of psychotherapy coming to terms with how she linguisticaly aided and abetted a murderer. A mother’s love has limits and boundaries but it would appear that neither one of them knew what a boundary was; neither one of them could see as far as the outside of a jail cell when it came to putting one lie together with the next.

    When Cindy provided the nifty little lie about Zanny having a key to the house Casey had to realize again and again that her mother knew what she did and posssibly when she did it.

    She’ll never tell them “what happened” and that I think is all they really want to know now. They are patient and will wait and in the meantime they can discuss bologna sandwiches and cold slaw,

    On a lighter note…..you know when she was discussing the bologna sandwiches and the cold slaw, she sure did look and sound like a happy person.

     
  13. diana

    October 31, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    Yes *Boston…….She was happy discussing bologna sandwiches and cole slaw, because it was all about her. Reminded me of a little child away at camp and her parents came for a visit. Notice how upset she gets when the conversation is switched to Caylee. She is so jealous of her own child it is unreal.
    Reading Cindys latest deposition with her dodging and weaving her way around her myspace post, lying through her teeth was absolutely ridiculous. She must think the prosecution team is as dumb as her husband.

     
  14. Boston

    November 1, 2009 at 6:34 am

    Diana-I think when this case is over and Casey has the time to review her case for appeal she will have the opportunity to read all the lies her mother and father told from the moment they arrived at the towyard. When will she ever realize that her parents never doubted that she was capable of murder. Will it ever matter to her?

    I forgive both parents because they were beaten up for years. I am going to give these parents a free jail pass and tell them to get the intensive psychotherapy they need before this trial begins.

     
  15. Ideas

    November 1, 2009 at 7:32 am

    Boston–Do you think psychotherapy for the parents will cure their lack of moral integrity [doing, saying what is right]?

    Who beat up the parents? Why did they allow themselves to be beaten up? Where is their accountability as adults?

     
  16. Boston

    November 1, 2009 at 9:10 am

    Ideas -I think it is emotionally and intellectually possible to regain what they have lost. I believe anyone can be blinded by what they see and hear in a metaphorical sense. It would be my opinion that their moral integrity was manipulated by Casey. “The human mind, whatever its conscious good will, is subject to powerful, self desceptive, unconscious manipulation…” IS*

    The full development of each characteristic of the mind, critical thought, moral integrity and responsible citienship, etc are developed together only in an atmosphere which encourages intellectual virtues: (courage, empathy, good faith or intergrity, perserverance, fair mindedness, and faith in reason). What happened to this family happened many years ago and it wasn;t because the parents ignored their children or abandoned them emotionally, physically or spiritually.

    I think Casey screwed them over and they lacked the moral FORTITUDE to fight back. Think of Casey as a person who walked around with a whip.

     
  17. Sassy

    November 2, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    I don’t understand why Casey would dump the body in a wooded area that was so close to the street? Why wouldn’t she try to hide it better? She knew kids played back there. It is as if she wanted the body found so they’d discover the duct tape and think it was a kidnapping. She must have been in a big hurry to get rid of the body after George got suspicious. To account for the smell and stain in the trunk, she bought a pizza and threw it in there thinking that would fool everyone. She left her purse on the seat of the car as an invitation for someone to steal the car so the chain of evidence would be broken and another person could be blamed. I wonder if she originally took the body out by the airport where all the pings came from, but then had someone move it closer to home. Any theories on why she would have put the body so close to the street? Did she just heave it from the side of the road? This is so weird. Maybe she’ll say that the nanny threw the body near Casey’s house so it would implicate Casey.

    Is Casey an idiot, or does she just think everyone else is? How could she be so naive to think that dragging the officers around to different phony addresses would get her off of the hook? She must just think in the moment. DUH.

    As I recall, Cindy said the ladder was moved away from the pool the night before Caylee disappeared, but when she came home it was next to the pool. Perhaps Casey put the ladder there and then ENCOURAGED Caylee to go “swimming”. She might have put her body near the pool while she made phone calls and started figuring out a cover up for the “accidental” drowning. This would explain why the dogs hit in the back yard. Does anyone have a theory on why she borrowed the shovel? I mean aside from the obvious — if she just threw her in the trunk, then what was the shovel for? Was she out at the airport to bury the body but got interrupted and just drove around with the body in the trunk for a couple of days? This is so confusing.

    What will hang Casey in the end will be her belief that she is so clever, and law enforcement is so stupid. I think she’s playing some twisted kind of game.

    I hope I have my facts straight. I have read so much conflicting information that I don’t know what info was a lie, and what info was the truth.

     
    • citizenkim

      November 4, 2009 at 1:49 pm

      Hey Sassy- I think she dumped the body close bc she is lazy and stupid. She would also be able to watch the area for activity. I think her “plan” was to flee but she was lazy, horny and delusional. Statistically mothers who kill their children do leave them close to home. I don’t know about the shovel or the gas cans. I think she was thinking of several different “disposal scenarios” –burning car or hoping car got stolen, who knows? I still would like to know if it was out of gas. How much gas was in it when it was found? In any case she never followed through and ended up just tossing Caylee from the side of the road. Casey is an idiot AND thinks everyone else is (Jose often suffers the same delusion). I too think the pool is a likely candidate for the scene of the crime but again, who know? It’s ultra confusing.

       
  18. Sassy

    November 2, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    Does anyone have a theory as to why Cindy Anthony would write a My Space post on July 3 that said: “Now she is gone and I don’t know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and…” A post for many to read!

    She must have thought that it was her fault that Casey ran off after she apparently tried to choke her. She must have been worried that she could be blamed for the fact that her grand daughter is gone due to her blowing up at Casey. All I am guilty of is…

    Trying to be alpha Mom and taking over.
    Forcing Casey to have a child when she didn’t even have a high school diploma.
    Enabling Casey by not taking action when she knew Casey
    was a liar and a thief.
    Bossing George around so that Casey lost respect for him.
    Taking over the role of head of household and emasculating George.

    THAT’S ALL folks…

     
  19. Boston

    November 3, 2009 at 9:17 am

    I think it is best to put the pieces of the puzzel together using the Discovery documents that have been released. That is one way of looking at this case.

    If you only take the first 48 hours of this investigation you can make some very credible assumptions. Of course the consciousness of guilt and hindering the investigation are what placed her in jail. She was implicated in the disappearance once she was charged with Neglect of a Child. She pleaded not guilty to everything as is her right.

    A look-back to the last time anyone saw Caylee alive is not a difficult task because Casey was out and about dancing, drinking and dating.

    Understand that a crime has been commited and the person of interest is the mother. She is a female adult, unemployed and living at home. Caylee is the sole driver of the car. The car is registered in the parents’ name(s).

    If you want to understand the case in chief you will have to look at the crime scene, the defendants speech and actions prior to and after the commission of the crime.

    If you want to see Justice for Caylee as so many say than you cannot look to her parents. They are secondary voices when it comes to this crime but they will play a huge part in the penalty phase.

    The prosecutor is the trier of facts. The DA must prove she did it and the defense must create doubt.

    Had they never found the body I believe enough circumstantial evidence exists to go forward with Felony Murder in the First Degee. She deflected the blame and punishment onto someone else. Most rational jurors could come to the conclusion that when she spoke with LE she lied. Her daughter was dead and she said she was missing.
    And so was the Nanny.

     
  20. Sassy

    November 3, 2009 at 9:50 am

    I think you misunderstood my post. I think Cindy feels guilty for blowing up since Casey left with Caylee the next day. This would explain why she continues to claim Casey is innocent when it so obvious to nearly everyone else that she isn’t. She probably thinks but for the 911 call, Casey would not be facing the death penalty. I do not think Cindy is guilty of having anything to do with harming the child. I think years ago George wanted to take action when Casey started stealing. I don’t think Cindy let him. From the first interview on TV, Cindy has always done the talking. She holds his hand, not to be affectionate, but to control him. A squeeze of the hand says, “shut up.”

    I still would like to hear theories on why the bag was so close to the road. This baffles me.

    The DA does not have to PROVE Casey did it. They have to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that she did it. There is a big difference. The question is, “How much doubt is reasonable?” Since Casey is not a star football player, the jurors just might be reasonable this time.

    Ah, but what if we convict her and she didn’t do it? This is the question every juror will wrestle with. It is almost better for Casey that they are seeking the death penalty. Death is final. If years later they find that Casey really was innocent, it’s too late to resurrect her. This can actually work in the defense’s favor. Giving her life in prison is not as definitive. Jurors can know that it can all be reversed in the future. But, I don’t think Casey is innocent. I have never felt more strongly about the guilt of a suspect.

     
    • citizenkim

      November 4, 2009 at 2:25 pm

      Sassy, I agree. Cindy feels guilty bc she was trying to make Casey grow up. George wanted to try the tough love route but Cindy keeps him on a short leash. I think Cindy feels guilty but thinks George is more so and takes it out on him. I think the bag, even though close to the road was well hidden. Those type of woods are almost impenetrable. I went on some of those searches and the underbrush and swampiness could have hidden a buffalo in places.

       
  21. Boston

    November 3, 2009 at 11:20 am

    The following is simply my opinion and my comments are a result of what I have read and what I understand to be true.

    It will never matter one iota if Cindy feels guilty. Do we know anything definitive about this fight other than the fact that someone who was not in the home that night said it happened? Most jurors like to know what the motive was but the DA is not mandated to show or prove motive. This tidbit of information is titilating in the court of public opinion but not in a court of law.

    Cindy is not as stupid as she appears. After all, wasn’t she one of the first people at the crime scene? Do you really think she was unaware that a crime might have taken place or at the very least that someone who she might know was harmed or possible killed in that vehicle? Wasn’t she looking for her granddaughter for a month prior to going to the towyard? It would be reasonable to assume that she was more than likely in a high state of anxiety and fear when she finally reported her granddaughter missing.

    The death penalty was added to the Felony Murder charge by serious minded Officers of the Court. What Cindy Anthony said or did was not factored into the decision. The DP is added because of special circumstances (child under 12, cruel and atrocious, etc.) and evidence of premeditation.

    The bag was thrown into the woods and found. It was found near the home of the mother and submerged in water.What is evidenciary is the fact that a Good Samaritan found this child and the ME has examined the remains and identified them to be the missing/abducted child. Manner of death was ruled a homicide.

    The only “theory” the DA will be interested in will be one that will PROVE who killed this child not why the trash bag
    was so close to the road.

    Trust in the jury system and the 12 good men and woman who will be selected to hear this case. They will look at the evidence and render a verdict which will be fair and just.

    I doubt that jurors will wrestle with the fact that someone other than Casey did it unless and until Ms Kenny Baden can present a clear and convincing case that a stranger abducted and killed this child. Stanger theories never work.
    They need to create doubt and this will surely be an uphill battle.

    IMO she will never be given the DP. She is simply too young and many jurors will not want to do it. Remember, even Casey Anthony has a right to forgiveness and redemption.

     
    • citizenkim

      November 4, 2009 at 2:35 pm

      Uphill battle is right. I cannot even imagine a scenario that they could possibly present! Also, they have shot themselves in the foot several times. By saying they have evidence of someone else moving the body. Now they have to give that up in discovery by Feb 1st. Jose says- yeah, wait for that. Well, MORON, if you had that type of evidence why not show it NOW so your client can get out of jail. He also has fumbled on the question of taking a plea by saying well, Casey would have to decide whether she would take a plea deal (in a Geraldo intv). His answer is usually my client is innocent! He dropped the ball there.

       
  22. Sassy

    November 3, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Boston,

    I never said Cindy was dumb. I think she is sharper than the rest of her family so she controls things.

    I simply asked if anyone had a theory as to why the bag was near the road. There is a reason the bag was not hidden deeper in the woods. You do not know if this is relevant yet or not. Time will tell.

    You don’t need tell me to trust in the jury system. You don’t need to tell me that Casey has a right to forgiveness and redemption.

    I think each juror will wrestle with wanting to make certain that they are making the right decision. Of course the defense will invent a story to cast doubt.

     
  23. Sassy

    November 3, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Would someone say that the DA would not care whether or not OJ was taking anti-inflammatory drugs because that would have nothing to do with whether he killed Nicole or not? If so they would miss the point that the only reason the glove did not fit was because he stopped taking his medication so that his hands would swell.

    I think the bag being near the side of the road can cause some doubt because if Casey lived that close to the scene she could have walked another 50 yards easily and there would be less chance that the bag would be discovered soon enough to gather important forensic evidence. Some times the devil is in the details. If I were on the defense team I would drive this detail home. I would say it points to someone else driving by and throwing the bag near her house so that it would connect her to the crime. Please don’t write back and tell me that I think this is what happened. I am merely stating that this is a little pearl for the defense team.

     
  24. Boston

    November 3, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Sassy-The glove didn’t fit because it shrunk. The leather was wet a some point and dried. It was a powerful slam dunk for the LA jurors to see the defendant slip on gloves he owned that didn;t fit. If any of them wore leather gloves in the Northeast they would have known that leather does not fit “like a glove” the following year.

    I think if you understand the role of the prosecutor and the defense you will be better able to present a theory that would hold water (no pun intended).

    It will never matter why the bag was close but why it was thrown in the first place, what was in it and how it is tied to the person charged.

    The prosecutor has the public duty to punish those commiting crimes, balanced with the duty to fairly try such individuals and the ascertainment of the true facts surrounding the commission of a crime. The state has the obligation to present the evidence.

    The defense doesn’t have to do a thing. They can sit at their table and say nothing. They can know the truth and not disclose it, they can confuse an honest witness and make them appear dishonest. Whatever it takes the defense can and will do to defend their client.

    Why would Mr Baez and his team proffer anything relative to why the remains were close to the road? They were submerged in water and that water was not close to the road. Caylee Marie Anthony’s final resting place was amidst palmetto roots/trees entombed in double black bags. This site was also a dump site for discarded washers and dryers. By the time the body was finally found they had to navigate around a couple of snakes. They brought one to the coroners office. Snakes and other critters ate this childs’ soft tissue. I hardly think they were close to the road.

    Casey Anthony is lazy and without charm but she did a fairly good job at throwing the remains into the woods. What prevented from being found earlier was Hurricane Fay-lots of wind and rain for a couple of days.

    Remember this is a circumstantial case and even if the body was never found she would still have been charged with felony murder in the first degree. They had evidence of premeditation very early on in the investigation.

    Remember she had a 500K Bond and that sent a powerful message to the community and to her attorney.

     
  25. Sassy

    November 3, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    After brainstorming for 14 years on a regular basis with a top criminal defense attorney (ex deputy DA) and his private investigator I realize that this is a circumstantial case. I also know how the brainstorming which included asking “What if?” often provided a story line to put doubt in the minds of the jurors. Remember OJ’s defense? “… Columbian necklace.” Yah, not that’s creative thinking. The jurors bought it.

    My role in these sessions was to play the devil’s advocate. The reason this criminal attorney is one of the top attorneys in the State of California is because he paid attention to all the details. That was my only point. He was a very creative thinker. The jurors know how leather shrinks. OJ’s hands were very swollen. Read the report.

    You seem to be preaching to the choir. Have you seen the 3D simulation of the crime scene?

     
  26. Boston

    November 3, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    I do not think you or anyone else needs to spend an inordinate amount of time deciding what is or what isn’t a circumstantial case.

    Circumstantial evidence is evidence which requires the trier of facts to make an inference which supports the truth of an assertion ( assertion of guilt or of absence of guilt). Circumstantial evidence usually accumulates into a collection , so that each piece corroborates the other pieces. Together they support more strongly the INFERENCE that the assertion is true. IC

    Forensic evidence is circumsmtantial. The smell in the trunk comes from a dead human being.
    The car belongs to the defendant
    the defendants car was abandoned
    The defendant states that she gave her child to her Nanny
    Nanny does not exist
    The defendant never reported her daughter missing or abducted for 30 days
    The defendant lied to those entrusted to find her child
    The defendant delayed or hampered the investigation into the disappearance and abduction of her child

    The investigation goes on until the DA has enough evidence to take it to th GJ. In the Anthony case about 12 weeks.This evidence is placed before the GJ and jurors are asked to revied the evidence, listen to the witnesses and come to a decision that you can all agree on.

    Brainstorming might be good “group think” and a great way to generate ideas but it is less effective when you want to solve weighty problems. I certainly do not want to pay any lawyer who relies on brainstorming to defend me. I want him to demonstrate that he has a thorough grounding in fundamental legal reasoning and analysis.
    Casey Anthony deserves nothing but the best.

    When you think of OJ Simpson think Jury Nullification. Plain and simple. That didn’t take too much creative thinking. The victims cried out for justice and they ignored them. They ignored the present danger and looked back at the crimes of the past and used these two victims to settle a score so to speak.

    The case method of study in criminal law requires each student to ask and answer one important question, “What do we know”.

    Most convicted felons ask, What if I kept that gun in my pocket. What if I just kept my mouth shut. What if I never layed eyes on that broad.

     
    • susan

      November 26, 2009 at 6:30 am

      i am just recently reading this story. I am in Australia.

      what I cannot fathom is

      1. was there ever a nanny?
      2. if not and as some have suggested zanny is short for xanax then how long has she been giving the kid xanax?
      3. I read somewhere and not sure if it is true that they did a test on caylee’s hair and there was no evidence of any benzos therefore no xanax
      4. if cindy had zanny’s phone number did the police try and contact that number?
      5. where did casey find zanny in the first place?

       
  27. Sassy

    November 4, 2009 at 12:31 am

    You once again infer what I have not implied. The attorney did not DEPEND on brainstorming. DUH. Brainstorming merely means that everyone in the group is free to throw out ideas without the fear of castigation. You obviously are reading blog posts and trying to stifle any questions or creative thought. This is not a forum for you to lecture us on the law. It is a forum where we are suppose to ask questions and perhaps put forth theories. Why else would be bother to post? Perhaps some of the bloggers are curious and want to try to figure out what really happened, as if the whole situations was Sudoku.

    This attorney was not appointed as well as privately retained to defend those up for for first degree murder because he depended solely on brainstorming. Either was Clarence Darrow.

    No wonder there are not many posting on this site.

     
  28. Boston

    November 4, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Good Morning-I thought I was being helpful. You asked good questions and I thought I’d take a stab at answering them. I have kept up with this trial and have learned an enormous amount about the law and how people respond and interpret meaning and intent.

    From what I have learned catagory…..
    During some trials there really is a battle over opinions rather than a dispute over the facts and I think this is where brainstorming would be a more effective thinking stategy. I take it that often times when trial outcomes are dependant on opinions and are boring, etc lawyers will search out ways to keep the jury’s attention as well as brainstorm strategies/ways to motivate them to avoid the compromise verdict. I think that’s where brainstorming would come in handy.

    I did not infer or imply anything I simply explained what a circumstantial case was to the best of my understanding and answered the secondary questions relative to OJ and what type of thinking should go into a case which is based on the facts. “What do we know” is latin for “evidence”. Evidence is what can exonerate your client or send her away for a very long time. Criminal law is not as adversarial as we might all think.

     
  29. Sassy

    November 4, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    You have assumed that the bag was thrown. Who said the bag was thrown? How far can a person throw a 30 lb bag? Can a 22 year old petite woman? Can a 26 year old buff man? How far can a 22 year old petite woman walk with a 30 lb. bag? Probably a lot farther than she can throw it.

    The 3D simulation and the official map of the crime scene show how close the bag was to the road. The minute I learned of just how close the bag was to the road, I thought either Casey was an idiot, or someone else threw or placed the bag there on purpose. Hurricane Fay did not cross Central Florida until after August 19. So, Casey could have walked much deeper into the woods to conceal the bag in June. Or, the flood waters could have moved the bag. Forensics show that weeds grew up through the skull, so it was at least in that particular spot long enough for weeds to grow. How close to the road did the spring rain water advance? Was the entire area flooded and infested with snakes in June?

    How do you know it does not matter one iota if Cindy feels guilty? Guilt over thinking she pushed Casey over the edge could be the reason she keeps professing Casey’s innocence. Of course she loves her daughter, but she might be motivated to cover for her if she feels somehow responsible. The reason I think she might have this tendency is because some how Casey was able to manipulate both her parents for years. Guilt leads many mothers to enable their daughters. Cindy thinks that by professing her daughter’s innocence we will believe her. Now, are we suppose to believe her because Cindy KNOWS more than we do about the “bombshell” the defense threatens to drop at trial, or are we suppose to consider the thought that her guilt over the blow-up is what motivates her, not secret knowledge? She is working on tainting the jury pool with doubt.

    Where does it state that this particular blog is only about what can be used in court at trial? It is a mystery and some are driven to try to solve it. We are interested in the story, not just the trial.

    In law school I learned that “technicalities” can prevent the whole truth from being revealed in order to protect the defendants constitutional rights, however, that does not mean that secrets never divulged to the jury due to technicalities are not interesting in and of themselves.

    We apparently will never see the video of Casey when she learned that Caylee’s remains had been found. Could anyone possibly think she was upset because she now knew that her daughter was indeed dead? The video must somehow cast a different light, because Jose is not going to let us see it. He could have used it to show how shocked she was to find that her daughter’s “kidnapper” had killed Caylee — if only the video didn’t support a much different conclusion. How clever is Jose? I hope he knows how to brainstorm up a story, she’s going to need it.

     
  30. Sassy

    November 4, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Hey Citizenkim,

    Thanks for your response to my questions. I’m buying the book today by the author, Fanning. Mommy’s Little Girl. Sorry I can’t put the title in italics or underline it, but there is no such button on this site! 🙂

    I find it disheartening that Casey could be lazy, only because that means she might actually like sitting on her butt all day in jail doing nothing but stuffing her face. Oh, if they ever put her with the general population she is going to experience the same fear Caylee must have experienced.

    Since I’m stuck waiting while they put studded tires on my car today, I’ll take the book with me and let you know what I think. It’s only $6.99. Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

    The epitome of stupidity was when Casey borrowed the neighbor’s shovel to dig up the bamboo. Ha ha ha! Have you ever tried to dig up bamboo? No wonder she never graduated from high school. No ambition, no great intellect, no ability to think past the moment.

    Have you read the instant messages between her and Tony? He was obviously just using her for sex. If you haven’t read them you must! She lies to him all day about when she will be able to come over to his house. You see, she was going to have her mother babysit, but her mother hurt her neck. Zanny was on the way home from Tampa and she was stuck in traffic. OH… AND… she had to drop her dog off. By 9:00 Tony gave up. DUH. Good thing those two never had kids.

     
    • citizenkim

      November 4, 2009 at 2:50 pm

      Hi Sassy! I pre- ordered that book and they said it won’t get here until the 9th. I’m sooo mad! I thought I would get it sooner by pre-ordering- GRRR. Now it will arrive while I’m in NYC and I won’t be able to read it for a couple of weeks. I may have to break down and buy another one in the airport- it’s perfect for a lobby wait/plane ride/baggage claim situation/subway ride situation. That used to be one of my favorite parts about living in NYC- interesting conversations w/strangers who wanted to talk about whatever you’re reading on the subway- good times. I wonder if there are many up there who are following so closely? I live about an hour away from Orlando and would often comment on the case if it was on the tabloids in the grocery store- I’m nosy like that and like to hear peoples thoughts. I was often surprised by the number of people who were just vaguely aware of the case.

      I haven’t read those Tony texts for a while- I should definitely revisit. I remember her stringing him along and getting almost panicked when he was insistent one night about coming over. I also remember w/the other Tony she was banging she called Caylee a snot rag or some such name- charming little mother of the year huh Cindy?

       
  31. Boston

    November 4, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    Sassy-I don’t think it is going to matter whether or not she was capable of throwing the bag into the woods. Would it be relevant for the jurors to see her struggle with a 30 pound bag of potatos to make this point?

    Will it matter if she made two trips to Caylee’s final resting place? If DNA was found on the trash bags would it matter if it was placed there the first time or the second time?

    Perhaps on July 18 she decided to borrow the shovel from her neighbors to bury the child and found out the animals who ate her soft tissue did her work for her. Maybe she only saw the wet soggy torn clothes and called it a day thinking, “no one will find them”. Is there a witness at the jail who can testify to hearing this statement? Might be relevant.

    We do not know if that particular snake was there in June all we know for a fact is that it was there on Dec 11, 2008.

    How do we know that Cindy’s feeling guilty will not matter? Because she is not on trial. It will not matter to the jury whether she is happy or sad or drunk.

    Cindy and the rest of the world can give Casey Anthony the presumption of innocence 24/7. As a mother she will do what it takes to protect her daughter from the long arm of the law.

    A legal technicality does not trump the truth it simply allows some defendants to walk away from punishment due to a violation of their constitutional right(s). A well known example that most non lawyers can understand is the technicality relative to our constitutional rights…
    If evidence was illegaly obtained at the scene of the crime by an over zealous police investigator who did not obtain the necessary search warrent than the evidence cannot be used against the accused. I doubt very much if we will see any slipshod legal manuvering in Judge Strickland’s courtroom. He has a brilliant legal mind and is fair and compassionate in his dealing with both sides. A look at the Anthony depos is top notch work product.

    Judge Strickland ruled on the Motion to suppress the jailhouse video. Mr Baez wrote the Motion.

     
  32. Sassy

    November 4, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    Citizenkim,

    I’m sure glad I took the garbage out to the curb before I started reading this book about CMA, because the garbage man is coming tomorrow and since I picked up this book I can’t stop reading it. So far everything she relates is accurate compared to the actual transcripts. What is most helpful is that she puts the information in the proper chronological order. Remember how we kept learning tidbits on NG and the Orlando Sentinnel? Wow… this is not a book I’d want to read on an international flight. I’d never get any sleep. You are so right: Casey is stupid, delusional and lazy. This book confirms it. Very spooky.

     
  33. Sassy

    November 5, 2009 at 12:01 am

    Boston,

    According to the neighbor, Casey borrowed the shovel on June 17. Evidence was found in the back yard that someone had started to turn up soil in a 12 inch circle, but replaced the soil. Did she borrow it again on July 18? That would be incredibly stupid. But then again…

    I know Baez wrote the motion… as I stated earlier he doesn’t want us to see the tape. Of course the judge ruled on it. Of course technicalities don’t trump the truth. You keep misreading what I post.

    If you are checking this blog to catch someone spilling the beans, then good for you! Somebody has to do it.

    Cindy’s a spokesperson who wants to taint the jury. Some might be naive enough to think that since she stands beside her daughter, her daughter must be innocent. That’s the message she’s hoping to convey. That’s all I’m referring to. Once again, are we only allowed to discuss on this blog what is admissible in court?
    Yuh coud’a fooled me…

     
  34. Sassy

    November 5, 2009 at 2:51 am

    Citizenkim,

    Forgot to answer your question about the amount of gas left in the tank of Casey’s car. According to George and Simon at the wrecking yard: NADA. It was so empty that it wouldn’t start. They had to put gas in it from a tank that George had in his car. This is the second time in two weeks that she ran completely out of gas. The first time, she and her boyfriend Tony, (that weird looking horny New Yorker) went to the Anthonys’ shed, and she broke the lock and took (2) 5 gallon tanks of gas. When George found out, he called the police. That’s only because Cindy wasn’t there to stop him.

    Brilliant planning. Especially for an Event Coordinator for the largest theme park in the United States. H-e-l-l-o!

    Oh… the mental image … An airhead driving around Orlando on fumes, with a cadaver dog alerting trunk and a Bella Vita tattoo. Oh… and BIG white sunglasses.

    It’s a good thing that it is not summer, because my windows would be open and the neighbors would be able to hear me screaming, “You idiot!” as I read this book.

     
  35. Boston

    November 5, 2009 at 9:18 am

    I am confident that the neighbor’s accounting of when Ms Anthony approached him for the shovel and what she did with it is part of the discovery that both the prosecution and defense have shared (and published).

    There are standard Motions that every lawyer presents to the court and all are submitted in an effort to see that his/her client gets a fair trial. The Motion he filed relative to the reaction video had the potential to taint a jury and Judge Strickland stated in his ruling that it woud be highly inflammatory. Ms Anthony’s right to a fair trial outweighed the public’s right to see the video. Motion granted.

    It is a tireless waste of time to try and read peoples’ mind. I like the facts and a discussion that moves one’s thinking forward. It isn’t necessary to tear people down or label them to have a discussion or to learn something new.

    Mr and Mrs Anthony will only be tried in the court of public opinion for all they have said and for all they have failed to say. If it is the order of the court and they are charged with lying and obstruction, well, so be it. Until that time they are entitled to defend their daughter and mourn for the loss of Caylee.

    Do not underestimate Cindy Anthony. She knew when she went to the towyard that a dead body was in the car. That is a fact. Her granddaughter’s remains were found a quarter of a mile down the street. That is a fact.

    If half of what I have read is true than it is fair to say she covered up for Casey for several years. It was a stategy that must have had some success but it’s efficacy weakened as Casey grew older and became a mother. It was not possible to amend her ways and covering up was no longer an option because a child was now in the equation. Disaster struck.

     
  36. Boston

    November 5, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Sassy-I just got a call fromo B/N that Diane Fanning’s book is in.

     
  37. Sassy

    November 5, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Boston,
    It would seem that you think you are the one to decide what constitutes a discussion that moves one’s thinking forward. To you it is a tireless waste of time to try and read people’s minds, but perhaps to others it isn’t. It is a mystery. That is why when one reads a true crime book the author does not say: This happened on this day, then this happened, and the murderer was so and so. End of story. Just the facts, Mam. This is why dinner theaters have “Who Done It?” performances for the audience, and not “SHE Done It” ones. No one would bother to come.

    To many, the human psyche and what motivates a person’s behavior is very interesting. If you have ever wondered whether or not someone was trying to pull the wool over your eyes, you might have tried to figure out what they were thinking. The first question a professional actor has to ask himself is, “What is the character’s motivation?” Until they understand what the character was THINKING, they can’t portray the part as convincingly.

    Where have you read that it is a FACT that Cindy KNEW there was a dead body in the car? We can presume that she had a strong suspicion, but is it a FACT? If it is then she perhaps should be prosecuted for washing Casey’s smelly jeans that “smelled just like the damn car.” But of course, this is up to the DA. He will have to decide if they could win the case. Otherwise it would just be a waste of tax payer’s money and his deputies precious time. Cindy’s a nurse. She knows that smell. So do I, and it is so overpowering and foreign to any other odor that it is unmistakable. We are hard wired to avoid a dead body by being repulsed by the smell; just as we are usually turned off by the taste of something we have vomited in the past. Don’t eat that again — it’s poisonous. Don’t touch that body – – it is disease ridden. That’s why we burn or bury bodies.

    Casey did not graduate because she refused the administration’s offer to help her complete the few credits she needed in order to graduate with her class. What was she THINKING? She later refused her mother’s offer to pay for her to get her GED. What was she THINKING? Her boyfriend told her in an IM that if he couldn’t see her more than once every three weeks it would be over. He referred to her daughter as “the offspring”. He tried to manipulate Casey into coming over to his apartment to have sex. When he referred to her daughter as a non- person, what was she THINKING?

    Perhaps she was thinking that her past choices were centered around living in the NOW, and her future was bleak because of these choices. She went about removing all the obstacles in her way. No money? Steal. No sitter? Kill. What do you suppose she is now thinking? Jose, just like Mom will make everything right. Her tears as she learned of her GJ indictment were for the shocking realization that her lies had not removed this big obstacle.

    But of course, I should not be curious about motivation. I should only contemplate the facts. I should not read novels, only newspapers. The only problem is, it hard to decide which newspapers are non-fiction.

    Ernest Hemmingway in no way has the ablility to move his readers thinking forward. He’s not dealing in the facts.

     
  38. Sassy

    November 6, 2009 at 1:54 am

    Love the video above where Casey whines, “I haven’t slept for 4 days.”

    Hey, why don’cha try Chloroform?

     
  39. Boston

    November 6, 2009 at 7:44 am

    I finished Fanning’s book. She through the well informed a crumb here and there but basically that was it. I was glad to read it if only to compare and contrast my opinion with others.

     
  40. Boston

    November 6, 2009 at 9:55 am

    Sassy-You somehow resent an intelligent conversation. I have tried to move the conversation forward but to no avail. I do not look at this case as a form of entertainment nor has this case ever been a “mystery” to me. This case has captured the hearts and minds of so many around the world in part because it not only has sex, drugs, r/r, published discovery, phone conversations and jailhouse heartbreak but lawyers who don’t shut up and those that give valuable analysis of procedure during pretrial.

    This is a DP case and it deserves fair-minded and reasonable posters to agree on what is logical and rational.

    1. Cindy went to the towyard and smelled human decomposition. She called 911 and stated the car smelled like a dead body had been in it. FACT

    2. Dogs alerted to the smell of human decomposition. FACT

    3. Forensic results confirm it is the smell of human decomposition. FACT

    The evidence shows that not only did Mrs Anthony smell it but others corroborated it-Mr Anthony and the first responders to the home. FACT

    Within 48 hours Ms Anthony was arrested due primarily to the testimony of LE relative to the smell of decomposition and her inability to tell the truth about the whereabouts of her child, Ms Anthony’s Bond was set at 500K. She was considered a person of interest, a dangerous person and one who might take off if she had the opportunity. FACT

    This is a serious case and one in which we can all learn about the law, the inner workings of a loving yet dysfunctional family and grieve for the innocent and vulnerable child who lost her life.

    This is not a “mystery” but a case of life or death for this defendant. She knew right from wrong and it is unfortunate that a plea deal was not agreed on earlier.

     
  41. Sassy

    November 6, 2009 at 11:04 am

    Boston,
    And of course YOU are the only fair-minded reasonable poster and the one to decide what can be discussed in this forum. An intelligent discussion? There is an air of condescension in your replies. YOU have decided that it is not a mystery.

    Cindy went on a campaign to find a living Caylee. FACT
    Cindy visited Casey in the jail and tried to get information as
    to Caylee’s whereabouts before Caylee’s birthday. FACT
    So, did she KNOW for certain that there was a dead body in the trunk? Most likely. But not yet a FACT.

    You do not discuss. You talk down to.

     
  42. Boston

    November 6, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Sassy- No, this case is not a MYSTERY to me. I have a seriousness of purpose when I post and if there are serious questions to answer I try to stick to the facts. (see above)

    There are loads of Blogs out there that allow posters to rant and rave, swear, defame and degrade the poor unfortunate young men and woman who had the misfortune to enter Ms Anthony’s universe, as well as Blogs who look upon this case as a STORY.

    I try to be respectful of the Blog writer and stay on topic.

     
  43. Sassy

    November 6, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    http://www.cayleedaily.com/2009/11/casey-anthony-syringe-in-bottle-contained-traces-of-chloroform/comment-page-3/

    Citizenkim,

    Nice of Casey to leave the syringe inside the Gatorade bottle to preserve the chloroform. Apparently she didn’t do enough research! What an evil monster.

     
  44. Sassy

    November 7, 2009 at 1:29 am

    It would appear that some have the ability to edit a past post.

     
  45. Boston

    November 7, 2009 at 8:01 am

    Good Morning-The Blog owner has the ability to edit posts or delete unwanted ones.
    Good luck.

     
  46. Boston

    November 9, 2009 at 8:59 am

    Citizenkim-Are you going to review Dianne Fanning’s new book? I look forward to your take on things and would also like to read what others think. With the exposive evidence that was published last Friday it’s not surprising that her book was overlooked by most at Word Press. What say you?

     
  47. Sassy

    November 9, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    The bombshell in the FBI documents brought the case back before the public’s eyes and ears. I think it has peaked interest in the crime again. I think this will increase sales for Ms. Fanning. I certainly hope so. She is a very nice lady.

     
  48. Boston

    November 10, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Sassy-Go over to read Bill Sheaffer’s “Breaking My First Blog” it will reinerate what I wrote about this case (see above). He is a legal analyst fully grounded in the fundamentals of legal reason and knows a logical inconsistency when he sees/hears one. Enjoy.

    Remember we have only seen what the DA feels will not jeopardize his team’s case theory. There is further incriminating evidence to come forward at trial.

     
  49. sassy

    November 10, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    http://www.wftv.com/video/18428614/index.html

    Of course. It ain’t over ’til the fat lady sings…

     
  50. sassy

    November 10, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    I have always known that this was a circumstantial evidence case. What have I ever said that would change this? I know they never needed a body for a conviction. I learned that the first week in criminal law. BUT, they need to make the jurors think that Casey did not put the body there. This is why the location could have been used to create doubt. Of course it’s a stretch! But you seemed to have inferred that I thought this was exculpatory evidence. All I was thinking when I wrote that was how strange I thought it was that Casey put the bag so close to the road. It was stupid. Very stupid. If is was thrown, it was more believable that her husky brother could have thrown a 35 lb bag from a car into the woods than Casey. Remember that at the time I wrote that post, the FBI had not released the documents about the coffin flies. The defense had claimed that Casey was in custody when the bag was placed there. I still think it incredulous that someone could murder a child and then be too lazy to walk another 50 yards into the woods to better conceal the body when it is obvious from that person’s statements that she could be put away “for eternity”. From what I had read at the time, that area was not flooded in June. I did not say that Casey did not put the bag there because of the close proximity to the road. Apparently you jumped to a conclusion.

    Watch all of the You Tube videos of Schaeffer. He states what I have always thought:

    – It IS possible for Casey to get the Death Penalty. Her youth is not a mitigating circumstance. Her relationship to the victim is an aggravating circumstance. You said she was too young for the DP.

    – He discusses how a defense team will “open a thousand oysters to try and find one pearl” Before even hearing this, I had stated in an earlier post that I thought the location of the bag COULD be a pearl. That’s all I said. I also said this in conjunction with the knowledge that a good defense lawyer will “brainstorm”. This is to me what opening a thousand oysters is all about. You put me down for making that remark, but as I stated, I have been there and done that. For 14 years. The defense has brainstormed and come to the conclusion apparently that the “somebody else put the body there” will no longer fly. So now their new spin is that the forensics are junk science. They brainstormed and this is the best they can come up with for now. They have nothing else. This is when brainstorming is crucial. Yes, it’s bullshit, but that’s the only card to play in a slam dunk case.

    -I told you that the prosecution has to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt”. You answered: The prosecution has to PROVE. Big difference, as Schaeffer points out. PARTICULARLY SO IN A CIRCUMSTANTIAL CASE WITH NO DIRECT EVIDENCE.

    I think you SAW the user name “Sassy” and assumed I was a naive woman who had no experience or knowledge of the legal system. The main point I tried to make is that this blog is about Casey Anthony and what her parents knew and when. If you read all of Citizen Kim’s posts and editorial, you will see that she does not discuss only that which is going to be admissible in court. Therefore I can conclude that it is okay to discuss Casey’s psychological makeup. It is okay to discuss her family. It is okay to discuss Cindy’s attempt to taint the jury pool.

    I said the motivation and thoughts of Casey and her family were a mystery. You came back and said the CASE was not a mystery to you. You have tried to control what is discussed on this blog, and as you can see, you have stifled potential bloggers from posting anything.

    You should not talk down to bloggers. I know you probably didn’t mean to sound condescending, but you certainly did.

    No, I am not offended by an intelligent conversation. I am just not that interested in perhaps what YOU have to pontificate about.

    Want to start over?

     
  51. Boston

    November 10, 2009 at 9:51 pm

    No.

     
  52. Boston

    November 11, 2009 at 2:07 pm

     
  53. Sassy

    November 11, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Good link! Looks like Cindy was taking the following medication starting 8/13/08:

    LEXAPRO: Treatment for depression and anxiety

    CHONAZEPAN: a BENZODIAZEPINE used to treat panic disorder

    HYDROCHLOROTHIAZIDE: Treatment for hypertension.

    Indications for all 3: Casey for a daughter

     
  54. sassy

    November 11, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    By the way, I was looking into the medicine cabinet for any drugs containing testosterone.

     
  55. Boston

    November 11, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    p. 3511 skull found 87 feet from the lightpole.

    Hurricane Fay was a powerful storm that left close to 25″ of rain on/at the crime scene and that is why the child remained submerged for many weeks. It is apparent from the entomology reports that the vegetation that grew through her remains began in June.

    If the body moved it was moved by Mother Nature.

     
  56. sassy

    November 11, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    I was so glad when I read the latest news about the entomology report. I had known what the expert botanist was going to testify to months ago, but the colonization of the coffin flies… that just shot the defense allegation that the body was put there after Casey was incarcerated into pieces.

    “Okay guys, that didn’t work so… next?” If Casey had paid more atttention in school, and not skipped class so much, perhaps she would have learned at least something about biology, forensics, and botany.

    It seems very odd that Casey retained Baez when he is not competent to handle a death penalty murder case. In California, the attorneys are rated by their peers, as well as by the judicial system. Only attorneys with a rating of 6 can be appointed by the court to handle death penalty cases.

    Have you heard the theory that Casey knew Baez before she was arrested? There is that rumor floating around out there. Of course, it is just a rumor.

     
  57. Sassy

    November 13, 2009 at 1:08 am

    Per search grid:

    Skull was found 16 feet to 24 feet South on the baseline and 84 INCHES, not FEET to 26 feet 10 inches west of the baseline.

     
  58. Boston

    November 13, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    reread doc

     
  59. Sassy

    November 13, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    Page 5: Area skull was recovered 17′ to 21′ South on the baseline to 86″ to 190″ West of the baseline section.

    0 degrees was at south edge of the South curb of Suburban Drive.

    Page 14: The final recovery dimensions of the secure were approximately 75′ East and West, 56′ North and South.

    The fact that Kronk saw the bag, says the bag was too close to the road.

     
  60. Sassy

    November 13, 2009 at 9:34 pm

     
  61. Boston

    November 13, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    see page 3480: skull was 87′ East of the lightpole

    When the crime scene investigation is complete it will no longer just be on paper. It will be presented at trial so that the trier of facts* can hear the cries of the victim and listen to her take her last breath.

    It will never matter to the jurors if Mr Kronk thought the bag was too close to the road. The only opinions that matter at trial will be either medical or legal opinions.

    *jurors

     
  62. Sassy

    November 13, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    They won’t hear the cries of the victim. There was duct tape across her mouth.

    Casey was careless. She should have walked a little farther. That’s my only point.

     
  63. Boston

    November 14, 2009 at 9:06 am

    Take care of yourself.

     
  64. Linda From New York

    November 14, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    Wow, I donlt know how I ended up here, but love ya already! AND loved the videos! I will have to keep reading!

     
  65. Sassy

    November 14, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    Welcom Linda!

    Hi from the West coast!

    You are amongst 2 bloggers here that I know of who love New York. My father is from upper state NY, and I find NYC to be a thrill. NYC has a reputation for having rude and uncaring citizens. My experience has been exactly the opposite. When I have visited NYC before, I couldn’t even open a map on a street corner without having at least 3 persons stop and ask, “Can I help you with directions?” I love the theatre and have always felt safe walking back to the hotel. I go to Orlando on a regular basis, and I don’t think I’d care to walk back from the Performing Arts Center to my hotel again!

    Glad you ended up here.

     
  66. Sassy

    November 14, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    Linda,
    I really do know how to spell “welcome”, but I am a crappy typist while on my laptop with the smaller keyboard. I like the big computer upstairs better, but it’s snowing here and it’s too cold in my office!

    Just making sure I “represent” the West Coast” 🙂

     
  67. Linda From New York

    November 15, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Hi Sassy,

    Starting to feel the change in weather here on the East Coast. It has been a rainy Fall. Snowing? Where on the West Coast are you? I’m about 40-45 minutes out of NYC. However, I don’t seem to venture that way often. My husband and I were thinking of maybe going for Christmas to see the “tree”. I live in Rocklan County, NY where people in NYC might call “upstate”, but there id plenty of NY left after us. Where does youf Father live?

    Glad I stumbled on this site. I love Citizenkim’s writing style. Was too tired to read all the rest, but today is another day.

     
  68. Sassy

    November 15, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Hi Linda,

    My father lived as a child in Buffalo. Now that’s snow! I live in the mountains, 18 miles from a great ski resort. Most of the snow is up on “the hill” as we call it.

    Citizenkim has a great sense of humor. Too bad we don’t hear more from her.

    Well, I’d better get some work done. I am self employed, which means I work every day!

     
  69. Sassy

    November 20, 2009 at 1:52 am

    Looks like the defense team is in full blown brainstorming mode. Re: Kronk being the next vicitim of Casey’s crime. Eventually, they will use the close proximity of the body to the road. If they don’t bring this up, they’re derelict.

    Now the defense is trying to make him a suspect. Next, they will discuss the spot at which the body was found.

    Mark my words, you thought I was a fool, but time will tell. 14 years of brainstorming tell me I’m not off base.

     
  70. Boston

    November 21, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Good Afternoon Sassy-I hope you are doing well and continuing to follow Fl v Anthony. If we can agree that brainstorming is a stategy (see above) than I think we can move beyond the mundane.
    If Mr Baez wants to win this case he must decide to engage in some hard core critical thinking. How did he pass the Bar without these skills?
    ________________________________________

    Critical thinking skills are important for every lawyer. Before you can write you must be able to think it through. Part of the thinking process entails careful judgement and judicious evaluation.

    It also includes deductive thinking-reasoning from a general rule to a specific conclusion.Then there is inductive thinking and that would be going from the specific to the general. (A lawyer will analyze a series of specifics cases to develop a general legal rule)

    Reasoning by Analogy. This process is based on the concept that similar facts or principles should lead to similar conclusions.

    Lawyers look for the distinctions in the facts or law-they should be able to argue that adverse cases do not apply to thier clients circumstances, etc. Being able to distinguish a case is just as important as making an analogy.

    Critical Reading is the foundation for legal reasoning.

    Source:Skills Needed for Law School / CA law school (IS)

     
  71. Sassy

    November 22, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Perhaps we might believe that Casey was too scared to call 911 when Caylee was first “kidnapped”. Perhaps we can believe that she needed to keep this a secret so that the kidnappers would not cry foul and kill Caylee. However, most rational persons would agree that LE including the FBI have far more experience in finding a child, and far more resources than an individual does. Her father was apparently a homicide detective at one time. Of course she could have trusted him not to say anything or do anything to harm Caylee. What I cannot believe is that she did not go to George and say, “Dad, this horrible thing happened and I was told not to say anything to LE or anyone. What do YOU think I should do?” She could have talked to a detective privately without calling 911 and leaving a recording. But, she didn’t. After a week, she should have deduced that her method of recovering Caylee wasn’t working. Perhaps powers of deduction evaporate when one is drunk or suffering from Saturday Night Fever.

    The problem with Baez hitting the studios the day after deposition with the Kronk story is that most are thinking, “Are you kidding? Nice try, Bozo.” He’s lost his credibility. He has gone beyond his duty to defend his client. What about Mr. Kronk’s rights? Who will see to it that his are not violated?

    It’s interesting that Baez didn’t implicate Kronk until after he was fired and lost his representation paid for by the county. I hope his attorney does not abandon him. I think Baez is bucking on it.

    I understand why Kronk didn’t go back to the site for 4 months after being dismissed by LE. I once saw two men cutting a chain link fence in the middle of the day to steal metal from a commercial lot. I drove to the nearest warehouse and told them what I saw. Their answer was, “Why would anyone cut down a fence in broad daylight?”

    My answer was, because people like you won’t believe anyone would do that in broad daylight, so they don’t call the police. If it happened at night most would call the police. As it turned out, they did steal the metal. I didn’t have a cell phone with me at the time, and I didn’t call when I got home. Perhaps Kronk was put off by the officer who dismissed him as being an idiot.

     
  72. Boston

    November 22, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Logic and rational thought results from being able to think critically about the case. Just stick to the facts and be more objective and discerning with them. We are not dealing with a mystery but a set of facts, laws which govern due process and an upcoming trial which will result in a verdict. If there is a penalty phase it will be swift and certain.

    No matter how difficult Mr Baez makes the pretrial and trial, it is my opinion that jurors will find it very difficult to send her to the death chamber.

     
  73. Boston

    November 22, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    To understand the Kronk Motion read the following:

    The following will help you to understand the recent Motion filed by Mr Baez. This is Mr. Richard Hornsby’s analysis. For an opposing view go to Bill Shaeffer’s Blog and read his opinion piece.

    http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2009/11/22 in defense-of-the-casey-anthony-defense/

    Hope this helps.

     
  74. Boston

    November 22, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Bill Shaeffer is also a legal analyst and you might find his recent discussion informative and easy to understand.

    wftv.com/video/216773121/index.html

    __________________________________________
    If you Google Casey Anthony Discovery Documents you will find everything that is published up to and including the most recent document dump.

    Keep the following in mind: Dates are approximate but in the ballpark.

    July 15, 2008
    Child is reported missing by Cynthia M. Anthony, grandmother of Caylee M. Anthony

    July 16, 2008
    Probable cause exists to arrest mother, Ms Casey M. Anthony, mother of missing for Neglect (lost her child) lying to investigators and obstructing the investigation.

    July 22, 2008
    Bond was set at 500K

    July 31, 2008
    Psychiatric testing is complete and submitted to Judge Strickland

    Results were also turned over the Fifth District Court of Appeals and they were the ones who ruled on Bond reduction. NO BOND REDUCTION

    They also ruled that Casey Anthony would not get another Bond hearing. The results of Ms Anthony’s psychiatric evaluation are sealed.

    December 11, 2009
    Body of missing child is found and results from the autopsy have definitively identified the remains of the child who was reported missing on July 15, 2008.

    If these are all the facts you know, a reasonable person could make an assumption that something very bad happened. Following the information and reading the discovery will answer many of your questions.

    Hope this helps.

     
  75. Sassy

    November 22, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    Thanks! Love the Hornsby critique of Bill Shaeffer. I think he would have sounded more scholarly if he’d left out the cutting remarks about Shaeffer’s suspenders and his advancing age. F. Lee Bailey was pretty smart at that age, so I think Hornsby could have skipped the disparaging remarks that had nothing to do with legal procedure.

    I don’t think that the remains were identified on the same day that they discovered Caylee’s body. It took some time to get the DNA results. I think it was December 16th when the positive ID came in. Doesn’t really matter.

    I wish I’d been a fly on the wall when the Psychiatrist analyzed Casey. I read something last night written by someone who was analyzing Casey’s speech from her interviews with detectives. It was very enlightening. Hope I can find the link. I’ll post it if I find it.

     
  76. Sassy

    November 22, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    http://www.cayleedaily.com/2009/05/detecting-deception-analysis-of-casey-anthony/

    Results of DNA of body announced December 19.

    If I were on the jury I sure would want to know how Kronk could have gotten the laundry bag, plastic bag, Pooh blanket, etc. Then there is the access to the computer. Sounds more like Cindy could be connected than Kronk. Of course I don’t believe Cindy did it anymore than I believe Kronk did.

    But, maybe I’m just a sick-o too, since I have played World of Warcraft many times with friends across the country. Fantasy ain’t all bad…

     
  77. Boston

    December 4, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Sassy- Sorry about responding so late.

    Go to Marinade Dave’s Blog and read the letter he received from a TES volunteer. The letter was written by a brilliant criminal defense attorney by the name of Mark NeJame. I hope this letter sets the record straight about the crime scene and resolves some of your questions relative to the condition of the crime scene and what searchers did not see.

    When the jury is seated next June 2010 they won’t be comtemplating or want to know how Mr Kronk got the laundry bag, plastic bag, WTP blanket, etc. because he was not charged with a crime and he is not the defendant in this case.

    He is on the DA’s Witness List and will come forward to talk about finding, “a skull with masking tape on it.” There is no evidence linking him to the family or Ms Anthony.

    Like I said above Mr and Mrs George Anthony had nothing whatsoever to do with the commission of this crime before or after the fact. The DA will not go after the parents.

    Mr Hornsby and Mr Shaeffer are both terrific lawyers with solid critical thinking skills which are grounded in the fundamentals of legal reasoning. Pointing out that Mr Shaeffer wears suspenders does not reflect on his scholarship or lack thereof. It was simply an endearing observation. It wasn’t a disparaging comment and it didn;t have anything to do with legal procedure.

    The Fifth District Court of Appeals has sealed Ms Anthony’s psychiatric evaluation and denied her any further Bond hearings. Judge Strickland used the psychiatric evaluation to set her Bond at 500K. End of story.

    Casey Anthony has classic sociopathic speech.
    Hope this helps.

     
  78. Sassy

    December 10, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    Hi Boston,

    You once again misunderstand my post. If and only if the defense tries to paint Kronk as the killer, the jurors are going to question just how he supposedly got the laundry bag, blanket, etc. Of course the theory is a joke.

    Hornsby did not merely point out that Shaeffer wore suspenders, he called him “Mr. Suspenders” and taken within the context of the entire article, it was a slight, not endearing at all. Of course it had nothing to do with legal procedure. It was just a jab from one young attorney to an “old” one.

    Yes, Casey not only has classic sociopathic speech, she is an unconvincing liar. I knew she killed Caylee when she said to her parents: “I truly, truly love that little girl”. What mother refers to her daughter as “that little girl”? . By saying “truly, truly” she gives us the clue that she is lying, and she tries to cover her hatred by proclaiming “truly, truly”. I would never have to say to my parents that I love my daughter. That would be understood. If I wanted to remind them that I love my daughter, I wouldn’t think they would doubt me for one second, therefore I would not need to add “truly, truly’ to convince them. But of course, Casey said it for the cameras.

    I wonder if the shrink knows she killed Caylee?

    Have you heard whether or not they have acknowledged finding Casey’s fingerprints or DNA on the syringe and/or Gatorade bottle?

    I haven’t, so I’m wondering if that is the ace that is about to fall out of the sleeve. ??? I hope so.

     
  79. Boston

    December 11, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    OMG like it was my own thing….

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/new/nationworld/orl-caylee-anthony-case,0,3147747.htmlpage

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2009-12/50978831.pdf

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com media/acrobat/2009-12/50978836.pdf

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2009-12/50978847.pdf

    mainadedave.wordpress.com/2009/09/40-pages-released-today-zero-fingerprints-found

    I would like to suggest you join in the conversation at marinadeDave’s Blog.

    As a lawyer you will find much of this information informative. Join MarinadeDave’s Blog-he would welcome your analysis on what is going on in the trial. (go to the Front Page and scroll down. I provided a link for your convenience.

    Should you have further questions plealse do not hesitate to ask Dave. I will return to Boston after March 25, 2010.

    Merry Christmas

     
  80. Sassy

    December 13, 2009 at 1:32 am

    Boston,
    Thank you for the links! I read the blog last night. Most of the text was about an internal war of words amongst bloggers. I will give it another try.

    I read the Orlando Sentinel’s article about the fingerprints, or lack thereof on the trash taken from Casey’s trunk. I’m still trying to find out if there were any prints on the Gatorade bottle or syringe. I’ll check the articles.

    I go to Boston every quarter and love it. I particularly like the party bus that cruises through the Back Bay neighborhood during the summer with the disco ball and the crazy riders that just, “Hop on the bus Gus, make a new plan Stan…”

    Have a Merry Christmas in Boston. I surely miss Bar 10 at the Westin in Copley square.

     
  81. citizenkim

    December 13, 2009 at 2:04 am

    OMG— I just hardly ever come here anymore. But I have been enjoying the SH!T out of this song…

    OK– so perhaps something should prevail. OMG-!

     
  82. Jacinda

    October 31, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Hi Citizen Kim I love your blog and like so many others I am entralled disgusted and horrified by this case and the family it surrounds I feel sorry for cindy and george and then cindy opens her mouth and well its hard to maintain …Can anyone tell me where I can find the texts and IM’s between Tony and KC I only found 9 pages of them on docstoc and I noticed Sassy saying that she was saying other stuff that I didnt see in he content of those 9 pages so am thinking there must be more that I have been unable to find …Thanks for the amazing reading you have provided CKim I cant wait for your next blog and Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me with the Tony and KC texts and IMs 🙂

     

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